Talk:Emperor Constantine Palaiologos XII
We need a picture, who should we base his looks on? Misterxeight 02:05, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
4 things: 1. Are you going to put some of the description from Conculture here, the material about his rise to power and that fortunate DNA test? 2. Is the "Sultan of Turkey" a title of pretense (I hope)? 3. Are we going with the idea that "Greek Somaliland" is a current Greek possession, or one that Greece is seeking to get back? 4. Orlando's not a port. Benkarnell 02:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
The Turkish one is a hollow one, and I was going by where real Orlando is and there was another district of Florida which I included. Do you know of any cities in the RTC zone by th coast? I'm going with you ingenious idea that Greece gets it back shortly after Kostas' rise to LEGITAMATE power. I might as well include the stuff from conculture. Now I have to dig around, no surprise I was born without foresight :D Misterxeight 03:04, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
However if I can track down the caretaker of Turkey it might not be so pretentious after all. Misterxeight 03:06, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think Turkey has an actual caretaker, but I'd advise against being too ambitious so fast. Propaganda directed toward Greek ethnics and small colonies is one thing; attempting to conquer a much largrer neighbor is quite another-- and is the kind of thing that could cost Constantine his job! The title "Sultan of Turkey" would maybe fit the bombastic tone that Kostas is setting, but it would also make it more difficult for him to conduct diplomacy in the region; I'm thinking Jan's suggestion of a "Pontic League" of some sort with Greece at the helm.
- The Yahoo group has a search engine, so you'd just have to search for "Kostas" or what have you to find the relevant post, and then copy-paste and alter it as needed. Same goes for the GRE as it currently exists. A lot of this Wiki is simply archived Conculture discussions. Benkarnell 13:30, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Why so young?
I'm genuinely curious. Why did the government choose someone so young as the new King of Greece? Is he a close relation of lots of different powerful families? Is there some argument to be made that he has a right to the throne via a claim by blood? Perhaps he's the son of a wealthy/old family who happens also to be related to other royal families (like the Second House of Plantagenet, the Bourbons, the Vlas-Floreas, the Romanovs, etc.)? Was his father or other close relative a vastly popular person and this young man basks in the allure of his famous (presumably late) family member, shades of Prince William and his mother Princess Diana, or JFK Jr. here in the USA? Or some combination of these? Or something else? I'm just thinking that twenty-two years old seems terribly young in our modern age. Not that it can't work--I'm just asking for some details. Thanks in advance! Zahir 17:45, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Actually he came from a middle class family from Athns, Attiki. However, think of all the greatest orators, then think twice as good as them. True, he is the last descendant of Emperor Constantine XI, that helps, but it's really that he is for Greece, and Greece alone that made him popular. He listens to the lowliest farmer, the most rebellious communist, even the wealthly old import tycoon. Thus age isn't TOO much of a factor. He really is THE people's man and they greatly support him. Twenty-Two is strating to get a little too old to marry, do you have any ideas for him? Possibly a political marriage? Misterxeight 17:54, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- I can well believe that he is a charismatic man with great oratorical skills. My question is regards how he came to be in a prominent position? Alexander the Great would have had a much harder road to conquest if he hadn't been the son of Macedonia's King. Evita Peron was the star of a popular radio show and married a prominent career military officer (he was in his forties or fifties at the time). Seems to me Constantine needs to be famous in his own right, for something or else he's just one more face in the crowd. Possibilities...
- He was a star athlete, perhaps winning the Marathon for Greece in the World Games for the first time in decades.
- He gave an electrifying speech at some very public function (rather like Barack Obama here in the US), preferably in his teens. Maybe it was a staged public debate about Greece's future? Here colleges have "forensic speech" tournaments where competitors debate and give speeches based on randomly selected quotes, etc. Maybe in Greece this same kind of event is televised, in which case a startling contestant might garner considerable attention.
- Perhaps he became the voice of some student protest group, especially in a cause that was viewed favorably by most Greeks. A protest against some kind of foreign activity, maybe?
- Or maybe some combination of these? As far as marriage goes, the most obvious one that would put the crown on his head and a scepter in his hand would be marriage (or even engagement to) a close female relative of the late King! If had a daughter or a niece, I would suggest Constantine should be dating her at least, and the engagement be announced soon if they aren't already wed. Just my suggestion. Zahir 18:30, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Someone said something about there being a Duchess of Sparta who was the heir apparant. I had desposed (comeone, "Duchess" that's not even a Greek word!) but she might serve her purpose. I was thinking 2 and 3 for him. However 22 is too young, maybe 25-30? Plus God knows how old the Duchess is. Oh I've been meaning to ask you Zahir, you wouldn't happen to Arab, and/or Eastern Orthodox would you? Misterxeight 18:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC) Misterxeight 18:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- I am of Irish/Scottish/German extraction (with a dash of Nez Perce). I am seeking conversion to the Orthodox Church.
- "Duchess" may simply be an affection or a translation, rather the way "Mikado" is translated as "Emperor."
- I do find 25-30 a little more workable, myself. Gives him time to build a power base and enough experience to have an inkling of just how to get things done. As you can see, I've also made a portrait of the young Emperor. What do you think? It is a heavily doctored "blend" of actors Tom Welling and Orlando Bloom. Zahir 19:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I love it! Bravo Zahir. I was thinking, would you like to have a "doppleganger" s everyone calls them in the Greek government? Misterxeight 19:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Ooh, how can Constantine form the Imperialist party before the September, 2007 Parliament elections? He'd have to break off of the Democratic Revival Party. Misterxeight 19:45, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- Hee hee hee. Sure! My given name is "David Blue" so see what you can do with that. <g>
- As for the Imperialist Party--big movement like that never appear from nowhere. The Fascists in Italy arose from a perceived need for order amid chaos. The Peronistas in Argentina came from a sense of oppression by the lower classes. The Republicans here in the US were originally something of reform party, demanding policies in line with the industrial revolution (including the abolition of slavery). So presumably lots of people in and out of the Greek government believed in the general goals of the Imperialist Party, and the future Emperor gave voice to what they were thinking. Odds are he has some kind of inner circle, friends and/or advisors helping him along. Zahir 20:02, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Yeah I was thinking originally "puppeteers" using this fresh new face, but eventually they became his "puppets". Now that we've established the people are having problems, what should they be? I was thinking maybe the wild fires *here* were worse and the government *there* did less then *here*. So with the natives restless, Constantine puts a stop to the royal ignorance and does a lot of humanitarian work, and when the time came when Paul II died and the government in trouble, they all voted for him as President, but instead he married Alexadra, thus renaming the country "The Hellenic Empire" with himself "The Emperor of the Hellenic Empire". Besides being a monarch, I want him to be well-liked and do stuff for the people, not just conquer. Misterxeight 20:08, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- Rather like Napoleon III in some ways, with a dash of William of Orange, a smidgeon of young Richard II, some echoes of Octavius Caesar and a few of Peter the Great. Cool. Oh, and William Pitt the Younger.
- Does Greece really let twenty-somethings run for Parliament though? And why was he Leader? Another case of the Puppeteers choosing a vastly popular figurehead? Zahir 20:16, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I guess Prime Minister Ντέιβιντ Γaλάvo (Eet-ee-vint) (Goll-ah-no) might be a close friend and Vice President of the Imperialist Party.
No, I'll have to change that rule for IB's Greece. Actually no one wrote anything of a Greek Parliament, so I'm not even sure there is one, but we can fix that. He was leader because he was at the time believed to be related to Constantine XI, last Byzantine Emperor (which was proven) and he was a genius so that really was the piece-de-resistance (sorry Marc if I murdered French). He did make it to Parliament and everything before that by himself. However they really did underestimated him and after he assumed the throne, he got rid of them(let's say seven top Senators, give or take a few if you want). Misterxeight 20:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- There was a reference to "Parliament" in the article on Greece, but who knows what its actual nature might be. While maybe Constantine XIII did away with his original supporters ("Night of the Long Knives" redux, albeit hopefully not so bloody), he must have a genuine inner circle/advisers/allies. No idea who they might be. Zahir 20:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Did a page on Alexandra, Duchess of Sparta. What should her job be, besides Empress of Greece? Plus how would the rest of the world feel that this little known Senator from Attiki became Emperor of a 3 thousand year old nation? Misterxeight 20:38, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- The rest of the world will react in a wide variety of ways, from suspicion to hopefulness to paranoia to resentment to fandom. Like always. Some people will shoot their mouths off here and there (somebody'll call him the Antichrist, of course) but most won't do much of anything until he does something to impact their lives. That is JMHO. Zahir 20:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I thought the Duchess of Sparta was a shriveled old, barely-Greek, bat, but know that I can choose her age, personality, looks etc. it won't matter. Misterxeight 15:06, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Wow. He's kinda coming across as the political equivalent of a rock star! Complete with over-blown, expensive hobbies! I hope he doesn't cheat on his Empress too much. Zahir 06:23, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Actually because we able to make Alexandra like 5 years younger then him (is that TOO young, I don't want him to be disgusting), there's no need for him to. Misterxeight 22:04, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
- Heh. I'm not so sure that makes much of a difference. Unless he's simply not that kinda guy. Somebody this dashing, handsome, famous and (increasingly) powerful will have had plenty of temptation and will probably continue to have such. Still, he is also a very busy man. Very! Zahir 15:41, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
A couple of thoughts or three. I think the whole process of the DNA testing would take time. Apart from the actual tests (which I believe takes weeks to complete) you've also got to arrange a state visit and get the relevant Church authorities to approve removing and destroying enough of what I presume is a holy relic to get enough viable DNA. I also question just how much DNA would be available. From what I've read, the most likely form of DNA to survive so long is matrilineal, which would prove the Young Constantine was related to the earlier person through their respective mothers. It would be very unlikely (although not impossible) for other kinds of DNA to survive and be testable. Unless--the body in question is actually relatively recent, as in within a century or so? Especially if it were preserved in alcohol, which tends to preserve DNA, as opposed to formaldehyde, which destroys it. If the body (or body part) is relatively recent and preserved in alcohol, then you wouldn't need much tissue to check for a match, and the results would be far less ambiguous. Zahir 15:41, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
It occurs to me that perhaps the new Emperor might have a source of personal wealth? We've discussed the idea of his being a star athlete in his teens, which might have led to all sorts of endorsement deals. If he invested this right, he could have been very well-off by the time he graduated college. A particularly dynamic public speaker in the United States can command really hefty fees for giving speeches--commencement addresses, opening talks at conferences, speeches at colleges, etc. Again, this could be a source of investment capital, as might a book outlining his view of Greece and its future. Just a thought... Zahir 17:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
A very good thought indeed. Well let me see what sports the World Games have and we can move on from there. Misterxeight 17:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
I was thinking Rugby or Lacrosse. Maybe marksmanship because he served in the military (a fictional branch which would be combination of Special Forces/Hellenic Marine Bridage). Misterxeight 18:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- You also have to make it clear why he became the star in peoples' eyes, rather than the rest of the team. That was why I suggested he win the Marathon, perhaps the first Greek to do so in generations. Or something like that. Zahir 18:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
There's a _lot_ on Conculture that's more or less accepted, but which I can't find. Will it find a home here? Benkarnell 15:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
- Are you volunteering to move it here? When you say you can't find it, is it that you can't find it on conculture? BoArthur 16:46, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
- Mr.xeight and I discussed this before. With his permission I put what I believe is the material to which you're referring on this page. Please let me know if this is the case.
- I do see a problem. The name of the page gives his dynastic number as XIII which is not correct. He is either King Constantine XIV or Emperor Constantine XII. Zahir 16:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
I need to reiterate the problem above. As things are established right now, this guy must be King Constantine XIV of the Hellenes and/or Emperor Constantine XII because the last Byzantine Emperor was Constantine XI (according to here, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_XI ). So the name of this article is wrong. Zahir 19:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- He doesn't consider those other rulers legitimate, so he gave the title Constantine XII to his dad, and he took Constantine XIII. Misterxeight 20:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- It isn't a matter of whom he might consider legitimate, but a question of law. As established so far, he came to the throne via marriage to the Heiress Apparent, i.e. Alexandra. As a matter of law, that makes him monarch along the same lineal thread as Paul II, Constantine XII, etc. Hence upon his marriage and coronation he is Constantine XIV.
- When the Greek government decided to redefine the state as (essentially) a continuation of the Byzantine Empire, then he becomes Constantine XII. But where was the political mandate to give imperial honors to this guy's father, and not to anyone else in the family tree? Were there no other Constantines in his family line? Not even back to the 15th century when Constantinople fell before Mehmed II? The Emperor is not the government. He is the Head of State. He may even be Head of Government. He certainly has considerable power and influence. But unless Greece has somehow in a few months become a totalitarian state subject to the whims of its Emperor (which frankly seems unbelievable), there must be a justification for somehow bestowing this title to the guy's father.
- One of the easiest ways (although not without some difficulty) is to make Constantine's dad an official Pretender to the Greek throne. To somebody. Perhaps not even Constantine's father but rather his grandfather pursued this, gathering some adherents (this might take place as far back as the Second Great War). Perhaps the Palaiologos family was in some sense local nobility when Greece achieved independence and was considered for the throne at that time. Then the Palaiologos could be the (kinda/sorta) like the Royal Stewarts in our own history--perpetual Pretenders whom the powers-that-be see as no real threat anymore. That scenario makes granting Constantine's father imperial honors much more likely, and even Constantine's selection as Alexandra's husband much more understandable. Perhaps the League of Noble Emigrees might even view his family as Observers up until now (check with User:Marc pasquin about that).
- Which leaves us with the question--where is he (the dad) now? Zahir 22:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok I got it. His dad won't be given a title. Yes your logic of "He married a relative of Paul II, making him his heir" makes a lot of sense but, would you want to be descended from the people your strove to get rid of since college? Misterxeight 22:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- I not sure I understand your question. Perhaps I made my suggestion less than clear...
- I am suggesting that when Greece achieved independence, the Palaiologos family were in some sense local (i.e. Greek) nobility and were seriously considered for the Greek throne. In the end, it was offered to a member of the Oldenburg Dynasty instead, but the Palaiologos have always had their adherents who longed for a truly Greek royal family. This adds to Constantine's status from the get-go and makes his marriage to Alexandra a much more understandable compromise.
- Is that clearer? Zahir 22:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Then there won't have to be a revolution. Yes, yes that's better. Do you mind reworking the page then? Misterxeight 22:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Be glad to. Zahir 22:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Been doing some research. It seems that the best source for what is called "Ancient DNA" (defined as "...any DNA recovered from biological samples that have not been preserved specifically for later DNA analyses.") is either bones or teeth. In fact, this type of genetic material can last a surprisingly long time, as in many thousands of years. However, the odds are best (by far) in conditions that tend to preserve the fragile DNA strands. These would include frozen environments and mummified bodies. Contrary to popular belief, many cultures and peoples have mummified their dead, not just the Egyptians. Efforts to mummify or preserve individuals are scattered throughout history, including individuals suspected of being saints and/or particularly important persons. One of the relatively simplest ways--used at various times in various cultures--is to bleed the body out and remove the internal organs, replacing them straw or some other kind of 'filler' while treating the body with resins and the like. If the body is then kept dry and/or very cold, it seems likely that usable DNA could be extracted even five centuries later. It is more likely--although not certain either way--that Mitochondrial DNA (which is passed solely through the female) will be preserved in a usable state as opposed to Nuclear DNA (which comes from both parents). Hopefully, this provides some kind of guideline for Constantine XII proving his lineage scientifically. Zahir 17:05, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Very interesting indeed. I had no idea Europe mummified Saints of all people. The only thing we would have to change here is there is no official documentation of finding Constantine XI's body except they say a corpse found with purple boots was him. Legend has it Angels swooped him away before the siege, hid him underground, and turned him into a stone statue, only to be awoken when some nation truly needed him. Like King Arthur. Weird myth for Medeival Europe being as sophisticated as it was. Well more sophisticated in turns of folklore then Ancient times. Misterxeight 17:12, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Would the some sort of German ancestry of Constantine be Prussian, Bavarian, generic German, Saxon, or something else entirely? Misterxeight 19:31, 7 March 2009 (UTC)