Talk:Crisis of 1875
A few (Scandinavian related) comments & questions:
- The NAL does not owe allegience to just two British monarchs. Each province has their own monarch, although many of them share the same monarchs. New Sweden owes its allegience to the Scandinavian monarch, and not to any British monarch.
- It could be noted that this idea of "allegience" is more of a theoretical thing than an actual.
- Who are the Pan-Swedish nationalists? Are they New Swedes?
- I noticed that the TMS Maine is the same as *here's* CSS Virginia. What is the IB equivalent of the USS Monitor? Keep in mind that the USS Monitor was invented by the Swede, John Ericsson, and was the most advanced warship of its time. Its equivalent in IB should also remain a Scandinavian invention, perhaps armed with Espingols instead and likewise the most advanced of its time.
Boreanesia 23:45, 25 Sep 2005 (PDT)
- I was assuming that the development of ironclads took a different path in IB without the impetus of a genuine civil war. The Maine *there* was the first ship designed from the start to be ironclad, whereas the Chicago and Benedict Arnold were pre-existing vessels that received iron plating after commission. Given this is taking place more than a decade after the Virginia/Monitor *here* my further presumption was that Ericsson was probably not directly involved if at all--however, some of his presumed unbuilt designs were purchased years later as the NAL began its design of submersibles around the time of GW1. Recall also that *here* the Monitor was made for coastal defenses and river action. Practically the first time it went into the open sea it sank. So methinks it likely there was no Monitor in IB, but some other, quite different vessel (from your words, probably built by Sweden).
- By "Pan-Swedish Nationalists" I was literally plucking what might be an extreme nationalist group out of the ethnic soup of the IB. I figure every ethnic group has them at one time or another. I think probably I decided on making them New Swedes simply because (1) I didn't want them to be Socialists because that makes it too much of a two-sided set of troubles, (2) Scandavians evidently make up the single largest group of immigrants to the NAL, and (3) I was partially inspired maybe by the reaction some people were having to my proposed two-crowns-and-star design for the NAL navy. My own instinct in the latter's case is to let it remain and let it be a sore spot for some, a matter of fairly continuous argument and debate within NAL itself. The Nationalists could just as easily have been Irish or German or French or what-have-you. Does that answer your question? I am quite willing to change that to something that makes more sense.
- The Unionists may be totally wrong in their legal interpretation of NAL's status, but that would hardly be an impediment to their believing it. Political groups *here* believe things contrary to the facts all the time. But if the consensus is that their platform needs to go in a different direction, I've listening.
Zahir 07:16, 26 Sep 2005 (PDT)
- Regarding the Monitor: I guess the IB equivalent of the Monitor was built in Scandinavia *there*. It would be suitable for the Scandinavian army fleet to defend the numerous fjords and skærgårds.
- Regarding the Pan-Swedish nationalists: Yes, you answered my question. It makes sense to use Scandinavians.
- Regarding the legal interpretation of the NAL's monarchs: You are right that political parties differ when it comes to interpreting legal issues. But your article should be encyclopedic and not partisan. The first paragraph states "in theory they owed allegiance to a pair of monarchs who had historically been deadly rivals". This can be misinterpreted to mean that there are only two monarchs in the NAL. The fact is, the NAL has more than two monarchs. If you don't mind I'll change it to read, "in theory they owed allegience to several monarchies, two of which had historically been deadly rivals". It may be also be prudent to mention which monarchies you are refering to.
- Boreanesia 09:52, 26 Sep 2005 (PDT)
- I hadn't thought of the IB Monitor that way, but that does make a lot of sense. As for the changes you propose, please do so and thank you. Zahir 09:59, 26 Sep 2005 (PDT)
Involvement from Outside
Wouldn't the various motherlands be involved in the incident? Who would the FK monarchies and the SR support? Or was this an entirely internal affair? Boreanesia 21:59, 26 Sep 2005 (PDT)
- I was assuming this was pretty much an internal affair, one observed by outsiders with various degrees of concern or glee (depending on your POV) but the crisis itself only lasted less than a year. On the other hand, maybe some of NAL's neighbors responded by closing their borders or some such. Perhaps naval units of the FK or other navies changed their deployments a bit. I imagine the Scandavian diplomats were outraged at what Pickett evidently intended to do with Chicago and would have liked to see him a lot worse than dishonorably discharged. But that is just my take on it. What does everyone else think? Zahir 22:14, 26 Sep 2005 (PDT)
- the unionists anti-catholic stance would have earn then the ennimity of New Francy who would have probably reinforced its border just in case. If catholic congregation near the border were threaten (or felt to be), some local units of zouaves might also have decided to "volunteer" and crossed the border.--Marc Pasquin 17:45, 11 October 2005 (PDT)
- This seems like a marvelous little addition to the whole event, IMO. Would you like to write it up for inclusions? Zahir 11:06, 12 October 2005 (PDT)
- It was mostly a suggestion about what might have been, mainly to be use if need be as you develop your idea more.--Marc Pasquin 17:24, 12 October 2005 (PDT)
considering its limited scope, would realy be refered to as a "civil war" ? the "almost" sound a bit akward. What about "Civil Crisis", "the North American Insurection", etc...
I agree. The floor is open for any and all suggestions:
- North American Insurrection
- Unionist Uprising
- 1875 Insurrection
- Crisis of 1875
- Unionist Coup (failed)
- The "Maine" Incident
- The Troubles of 1875
- The Unionist Disaster
- The Disaster of 1875
- "Fall of the Hotel Royale"
What do folks think? Zahir 12:57, 11 October 2005 (PDT)
- How about "The Unionist Crisis (of 1875)"? Or possibly "The Great Crisis (of 1875)". --Kgaughan 14:10, 11 October 2005 (PDT)
- Seeing as there was most likely only ONE Unionist Crisis, I think (of 1875) is redundant. I like The Unionist Crisis. BoArthur
- Second that --Marc Pasquin 17:45, 11 October 2005 (PDT)
- The 'ONLY' objection I have to 'Unionist Crisis' is that the term is very syllibant. Really, saying it twice in the same sentence might easily give your listener a tiny shower. If everyone else agrees that a minor consideration (which is probably is) I'm very willing to go with Unionist Crisis. Zahir 11:06, 12 October 2005 (PDT)
Motion to Move
I think that this article should be moved to an article of appropriate title, because there are many civil wars in IB. Did we ever decided what to call this? BoArthur
- The consensus has been to dubb this "The Crisis of 1875". Thanks, I was getting ready to suggest exactly this as a prelude to its expansion and clarification. Zahir 21:15, 22 November 2005 (PST)
Maine is part of the province of Massachusetts Bay. Would there really be a ship named after a portion of a province? Christina 12:01, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- In our own world, the XIXth century was a time when the naming of military vessels was a surprisingly haphazard affair. To some extent it still is--a US aircraft carrier named after a member of the House of Representatives who sat on the Naval Appropriations Committee for decades, or a destroyer named for five brothers who died in a single action during WW2. My own thought was that some member of Parliament almost certainly suggested this as a name for a ship, said Member probably representing that area, and the SLN went along. Sometimes (in the British navy certainly) somebody in a position of authority would simply suggest a name they liked to the appropriate committee and said committee chose the names they liked. In Forester's Horatio Hornblower novels, for example, there is a ship named after a rebel against the crown (Hotspur) and an obscure figure from the Bible (Witch of Endor). Likewise the first true ironclad, Monitor, got that name simply because the designer liked it. By the middle of the XXth century, the naming of naval vessels became far more regimented. Zahir 15:20, 21 April 2010 (UTC)