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Where is Kieñseñ *here*? BoArthur

Seoul. It's the name (Gyeongseong in *here*'s Romanization) that was used during Japanese colonization *here*, a modification of the Joseon Dynasty name, Hanseñ/Hanseong Nik 19:48, 15 November 2005 (PST)
Internationally, would it be known as Kieñseñ or Seul? (Upon this hinges part of my NaNoWriMo efforts.) BoArthur
Kieñseñ. Seul would be unknown outside of Corea, and even in Corea, it would have the same sense as saying "the Capital" instead of "Washington DC" or "London" or whatever. Seul/Seoul is simply Corean for "Capital" Nik 20:34, 15 November 2005 (PST)


Korea *here* has a large population of Christians. Would that have happened in *there*'s Corea? I rather doubt it, what with the Japanese Empire being Not So Westernised and all, as well as the fact that the first Protestant missionaries were American, but on the other hand I'm not really sure how much missionary action depends on access to convenient shipping routes and therefore maybe the first missionaries could have journeyed to Corea after all. Maybe Corean Singyo/Mugyo takes the place of Protestantism *there* since it's so similar to Xinto? Juan Martin Velez Linares 9:09, 23 September 2015 (CDT)

Given the strength of Iesucuto, *there*, I'm sure there were missionaries. My understanding of Riugioñ is that it's still the Jerusalem of the East. I'll have to look into Siñio/Mugio, and see what I think. BoArthur 07:33, 25 September 2015 (PDT)
Hmm. Isn't Zesucuto essentially Japanese Santeria, though? I mean, it doesn't really seem to be either Christian or Xinto. Did Nik say that Riugioñ was the Jerusalem of the East? If so, then alright, there's probably some sort of explanation (Oregonian missionaries, perhaps?) to justify what I assume would be QSS. Or maybe instead of being Protestant Eastern Jerusalem, it's Catholic Eastern Jerusalem (Montreiano missionaries, anyone?) or Assyrian Eastern Jerusalem. Or maybe it's the Jerusalem of Zesucuto. Possibilities, possibilities! Juan Martin Velez Linares 10:40, 25 September 2015 (CDT)
QAA it's the Jerusalem of the East. Corea has a very strong Christian minority *here*, and given that they weren't opened up by the US, but rather Montrei, eg, Catholic, I can see them being a very desireable apple to pick among the Christian world. I expect there's a large percent of Latin Rite, Isidorian, Orthodox, and any other brand of Catholic. There's about 150,000 Mormons there, *there*, too. I see Japan being different for a time, but remember that Corea wasn't always under the dominion of Japan. BoArthur 11:29, 25 September 2015 (PDT)

There's no reason that there couldn't ever be Protestant missionaries in Corea, China, or Japan. I was thinking of the Orthodox Church in E. Asia and Oceania, and how much larger it is. In terms of Corea, I figure that Corea "there" would be an autonomous Church under the Japanese Orthodox Church. Maybe "there," the Japanese Orthodox Church has a patriarchate instead of an autocephalous archbishopric like in our world. I also figure that Russia is much more proactive with missionaries in IB ("there," one Hawaiian island and all of the Line Islands are Orthodox), that Corea might even have a larger share of Orthodox Christians than in our world. Hey, maybe Riugoñ is the seat of Corea's Archbishop? I ought to think of a name for him.

Korea has also had contacts with the Arab world for over a thousand years. In fact, I was shown a source that postulates some Korean noble families are the descendants of Muslim Arab merchants intermingling with native Koreans and converting to Buddhism. There might also be a Church of the East presence there, too. Misterxeight 16:33, 25 September 2015 (PDT)

Well, of course I'm not saying there wouldn't be Protestant missionaries in Corea and China (I think *here* they mostly skipped over Japan, assuming that's QAA), I'm just suggesting that Protestant Coreans are a smaller minority *there*. IIRC *here* large amounts of Koreans converted to Protestantism in response to the Japanese occupation. While Japan certainly didn't fulfill the role of the oppressor, China did, and from what I understand they were fàr more brutal in Corea than the Japanese ever were in Korea *here*. On the one hand, maybe more widespread conversion to Catholicism/Protestantism (probably not the Church of the East because, you know, China...) because of that, but on the other hand perhaps China was vèry meticulous in disposing of the Christian nationalist elite and they never got around to having enough influence before they got deported/killed/KZ'd.
Russia had a lòt less influence in Corea *there* IIRC, so probably not. There's definitely a Church of the East presence in there somewhere, probably a fair-sized one too. Probably dates to the Chosen/Choson Era, though, with perhaps a sea of more recent converts after all the bad blood between Corea and China has been forgotten. As for the Islam bit, most interesting. Islam is a lot less influential *there* apparently though, so IMO we should probably get the approval of Messrs. Hicken et van Steenbergen at least, if not also Messrs. Padraic, McDowell, and Smith and Mme. Taylor. Also, another idea: seeing as how Riugioñ is as much the Jerusalem of the East *there* as *here*, perhaps there's an ACTUAL Jewish population in the city? Probably descended from the Persian Jews who came on the Silk Road, of course. Might someone be able to get M. Belsky's opinion on that?Juan Martin Velez Linares 19:17, 25 September 2015 (CDT)
channeling the ideas of Mlle Taylor... Yes to less Eastern Orthodox...but I could see other orthodox churches making inroads, after the Catholics under Montrei/A.C.. I think the percent of Protestants to Catholics WOULD change, but I think there would be the same, or more Christians. Following the war, the Coreans would be seeking answers. Remember, they're not invaded once, but three times. Once by China, again by Australasia, taken back by China, and a final time by Japan. They're hurt, reeling.
I don't know that a lot of native Coreans would convert to Islam, not at first. I could see a certain Revanchism against the Chinese belief systems, immediately post-war, but by the 80s things could have leveled off. Thus, in Riugoñ, we'll have Church of the Far East, maybe a diocese, Latin Rite diocese, an Orthodox, some blend of Assyrian and Greek group, ... Guide me here, Mr X8 autocephalous? A patriarchate for the Far East? ... a stake of Mormons in Riugioñ (c'est-à-dire a diocese, in Mormon terms), an LDS temple. There will be Jews ... Escapees from gulags, per Juan's assertion on the Russia talk page that they left Russia. Likely have other Christian minorities that had fled the land wars of Asia, thus VERY cosmopolitan, and very much like Jerusalem. I'm fairly sure Rabbi Belsky will go along with it. He's quietly observing Yom Kippur just now, but we can ask him. Don't think he'll complain in the least. This is the direction I think I'll take things. BoArthur 18:53, 25 September 2015 (PDT)

I'm sorry, but I do not agree with some of these assessments.

I think the main thing that we're not taking into account here is time. While missionaries did get their start mostly after WWII in our world, there were still missionaries coming in and out centuries before.

In this world, numerous Chinese have been Assyrian Church of the East (while inaccurate they will be referred to henceforth as "Nestorians" for brevity) since the 600's AD. There is even proof that Nestorianism got to Japan even by the 700's from Japanese men who traveled to China and liked what they saw (Japan's closing wouldn't be for another few centuries). I imagine that Nestorian missionaries might have really gotten their start in Corea during the time of Genghis Khan. Even if their numbers are small, they could very well have had a community several couple-thousand strong before any Montreianos or Russians got there. Perhaps by the time that Great War II rolls around, they might realize that they need to distance themselves from the Chinese; such a thing could have happened during Corea's closing before then, anyway. These Corean Christians might have been able to bypass China for orders and look to Bornei-Filipinas and Iran at that time (or earlier). Perhaps there might be anti-Chinese reprisal directed at this small community, perhaps some will leave of their own volition for fear of reprisal, but I imagine that such an old community won't be snuffed out so easily. Even if it's only 5,000 strong, that's 5,000 more than in our world.

Much of the same would go for the Russians, who probably would have arrived much later, sometime I reckon in the 1800's. By the time GWII rolls around, the Corean Orthodox Church could have distanced itself from the Chinese and Russian Churches and aligned itself with the Japanese Orthodox Church (all four of those Churches exist in our world, although the Chinese Orthodox Church was mostly killed off by Mao and co.). If Russia sees the writing on the wall and allows the Japanese an autocephalous archbishop (meaning that he reports to no any high-ranking bishop), Corea might be brought in-toe. I have even been meaning to suggest that in Primorye, you might see churches loyal to Moscow and Quiòto (or Sapporo) who won't interact with each other, a very painful phenomenon we see all over in the Orthodox world "here." Much like with the Nestorians, perhaps there might be anti-Russian reprisal directed at this small community, perhaps some will leave of their own volition for fear of reprisal, but I imagine that such an old community won't be snuffed out so easily. Because Orthodox Christianity is so entrenched in Japan (mostly Ezo, it seems like) and China, I can't see why Corea would be a blindspot. As for how many there should be, I don't know, I can't even find how many their are in our world to use as a base proposal. If 35%-40% of Corea is some kind of Christian, I could see 8-10% being Orthodox or Nestorian, although I imagine that I'm being too generous. This man's doppelganger would make the perfect bishop of Riugioñ:

I was also going to ask about Confucianism and Shamanism in Corea. Confucianism I imagine would widely be snuffed out due to anti-Chinese sentiment. Shamanism I would like to propose might see an upswing, but it I think it would be fascinating if Korean Shamanism/Muism/Sinism is absorbed into Japanese Shintoism. I believe that a follower of Corean Shamanism might see himself as a Xintoist or a Zesucutoist or all three, even; the borders of religion aren't so clearly-cut in East Asia, and I don't imagine that would be any different in the world of Ill Bethisad. Misterxeight 22:04, 25 September 2015 (PDT)

I wasn't saying there'd be no Eastern Orthodox Christians, I'm just saying there wouldn't be an enormous community like that of Korean Protestants *here*. As for anti-Russian reprisal, the Japanese pretender government was kind of pro-Allies (officially neutral though) so probably there wasn't much anti-Russian sentiment after GWII. Probably there are recent converts, but post Russo-Japanese war there was definitely anti-Russian sentiment, probably even state-sponsored. Probably most Orthodox Christians in Corea *there* are recent converts. Yes to there probably being a lòt of Nestorians, though, which is why I said the community probably dates back to Chosen times. (At least). There might be forced conversions during the Chinese occupation, and I imagine that right after the war the Nestorian/Assyrian church probably doesn't get any influx of converts due to associations with China (also, perhaps some followers afraid of anti-Chinese revânchism as well as some forced converts convert right back to Singyo or Buddhism), but probably the Church of the East is experiencing an uptick in followers RN now that the associations with China have been forgotten, and it's probably still quite big. Confucianism IIRC isn't really a religion per se so much as it is a philosophy which just happens to mesh well with religion, although TBH my whole understanding of the status of Confucianism is shaky, so maybe someone more informed on the subject could extrapolate. As for Singyo, perhaps it could be state-sponsored due to its similarities to Xinto, and perhaps like in Japan *here* there are people who confess mutliple religions (maybe even most people). What do you think? Juan Martin Velez Linares 09:30, 23 September 2015 (CDT)

I know what you're saying, and I disagree. If Russian missionaries have been in Korea for 2-3 centuries, why can't there be equal numbers of Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox (along with Nestorians)?

I think you're sort of talking past me. I proposed a way for the Assyrian Church to have little contacts with China. By the time 1939 rolls around, there might not be any connections with China at all.

I didn't believe that Confucianism was a religion until I took a class on religion in China and I had an entire debate with my professor about it and she convinced me that it is, esp. during the Qing Dynasty.

That's exactly what I proposed. The two religions could meld. Misterxeight

I'm inclined to stick closer to *here*. The Russians were around pre-OGW, *there*, as the Kings of Corea tried to balance between the Japanese and the Russians. as Confucianism is a religion, I'm okay with fusion stuff happening. It's not without precedent *there*. I'm going to say plainly that Corea does have a strong 45-49% minority of a panoply of Christians. How they're divvied up, I'm open to discussion, but we're rolling forward, aside the Assyrian Rite concession I gave Mr Xeight, as I've laid it out above. We'll fit in the religions moving forward, but the broad strokes are those. BoArthur 12:44, 26 September 2015 (PDT)
The Russian Orthodox minority in *here*'s Korea is quite small, and honestly I don't see any reason for it to be any bigger *there*; the first Russian missionaries *here* arrived in 1897, by which time *there* Corea was allied staunchly with Japan. That being said, Orthodox missionaries don't HAVE to be Russian... I'm sure a certain nation in the Mediterranean would love to spread Orthodoxy to Corea's bountiful shores! ;)
TBH I was thinking that maybe the Assyrian church in Corea broke away from the Chinese one, but what M. Hicken was suggesting suggested otherwise... I'm so sorry for circumventing that tidbit that you wrote! Please forgive me. Juan Martin Velez Linares 17:15, 26 September 2015 (CDT)

On a side note, does the Unification Church exist *there*? Juan Martin Velez Linares 1:25, 19/2/2016 (CST)


what was the success of emperor Sejoñ (sp?) with his alphabet? i often see in texts more hanja than hangul (sorry, i cannot spell it properly in *there*'s orthography). is the situation in corea close to the south korean; i.e. some hangul, but still lots of hanja? Jan II. 04:02, 19 September 2016 (PDT)

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