Talk:Castreleon

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I think it's bogus to call Castreleon "Caerleon" in English. "Caerleon" is a Welsh word, and Welsh is extinct in IB. I think it's either Castreleon, or Castra Leonis, or Leochester, or even Lion's Camp; pick one. --John Cowan 06:13, 16 May 2005 (PDT)

Fixed. Elemtilas
In our English discourse *here*, I've never seen Castreleon called anything other than Castreleon. As for what the Saeson call it *there*, however, I reckon Leochester would be best. And wouldn't it be Castra Legionis, rather than Leonis in Latin- or did its name change *there*? Deiniol 10:34, 16 May 2005 (PDT)
Me, I think that's because we're simply using the Brithenig name. Likewise with "Kemr". The English *there* call Kemr "Wales", and would probably come up with an English name for Castreleon too. Elemtilas
How is that pronounced? - andrew.
Leochester? Would hazard either /liotSEstr/ ~ /[email protected]/ (for the nonrhotics) OR perhaps /litSEstr/ if it followed the eo > ie change like in thief. The latter may not be sufficiently different from /lItSEstr/, though. Unless THAT whole place is called Wigston, which I think would be sufficiently different that even a Bloody Saxon could differentiate the two! ;) Perhaps a discussion could be brought to the Sessiwn? Elemtilas

Question - if the city is called Leonchester in English, is the NAL province called New Leonchester in English, or is it still New Castreleon in English? Nik 23:54, 8 March 2006 (PST)

I was reserching this myself last night, for my latest althist. Caerleon is, in fact, Welsh for Manchester. Cardiff is Caerdydd in Welsh, although it is beleived that it means Caer Taff, which is a reference to the river the castle is built next to. So, in Brithenig, it should be Castretaff. Sorry for putting a spanner in the works. --Sikulu 07:15, 9 March 2006 (PST)

I've always been under the impression that Manceinion is Welsh for Manchester. That's what I call it when I'm speaking Welsh, at any rate. And Castreleon shouldn't be Castretaff, as it's not on the River Taff- Castreleon is only *there's* equivalent of Cardiff in that it's the capital of Wales. Geographically, Castreleon *there* corresponds with Caerleon *here*, which is a small community on the River Usk just north of Newport. So fear not- no spanner has approached the works! :) Deiniol 11:52, 9 March 2006 (PST)
Sorry, my bad. Must have remembered wrongly. Anyway, Caerleon is actually also the (proper) Welsh name for Chester (although, I just call it Caer myself). --Sikulu 01:01, 13 March 2006 (PST)
On that note, Chester or Cirencester would have made equally good choices for a capital. Also, there's nothing stoping an alternate New York being called New Manchester or something like that. --Sikulu 05:18, 13 March 2006 (PST)
No bad intended. I established Castreleon early on as the capital of Kemr, way back when ill Bethisad was still the Brithenig Universe. I think I did discuss it on the World Builders list at the time. Cirencester and Cadbury were also suggested as alternatives. I was already satisfied with Castreleon. Much of Castreleon's history and landmarks have not been established and await discovery. Also what happened to the boroughs that are now suburbs within its municipal boundaries.
Cardiff, which is tickled by Castreleon's tentacles, I have called Ciwdad ill Paes, a calque on Dinas Powys. Chester is Aberddui, an important city as it the Guard of the North. Historically its lordship has always been in the Royal Family. (The current Duchess of Aberddui is still at primary school.) It is the second biggest city in Kemr. My Pocket Welsh Dictionary calls it Caer as well. - AndrewSmith 19:50, 13 March 2006 (PST).

Bycopel

Surely we can push back the date of the initial Teiliteacs trials in two years or so in Kemr, considering when the system debuted. --Kgaughan 21:05, 29 December 2005 (PST)

Yeah, I think that would be a good idea. I know IB is behind the times, but I don't imagine it would be QUITE that behind. Juan Martin Velez Linares 21:59, 27 September 2015 (CDT)

Flag

What's with the three cats? - Nik 20:26, 1 January 2006 (PST)

It was just a flag I designed because it looked cool. But if Andrew doesn't mind, I can come up with a story to justify it... <g> Zahir 21:38, 1 January 2006 (PST)
Tsk, this is personal opinion, but shouldn't the flag have a meaning before or while you are creating it, rather than just "what's cool"? Doobieous 23:58, 8 March 2006 (PST)
Not necessarily. Doing things in such a non-linear way can often be a nice fount of creativity. The use of the bat for Oltenia happened in a similar way, and the name "Bjorn Honstadt" literally began as that--a name, of someone important enough to have a major NAL ship named after them during the Second Great War. Together several of us figured out who he was. Zahir 06:18, 9 March 2006 (PST)
I have to agree with Barrythough. Symbols, especialy of partly fictional entities tend to be more believable if they have just a bit of historicity. It doesn't have to limit you to the historical COA of castreleon's counterpart *here* but maybe something that at least would made those in the know go "Oh, I get it".--Marc Pasquin 16:26, 9 March 2006 (PST)
So that's what happened to the cats of Queen Beruthiel! :) - AndrewSmith 11:44, 13 March 2006 (PST).
Zahir, I'm not talking about layout, I'm talking about the use of symbols which are used just because they're "cool" or "neat" without some sort of history behind them. All of us who've made flags have certainly thought "wouldn't it be neat if...", such as the flag I created for the AC province of Mojave. Before I created it, I thought "what would be the reason for using the Joshua Tree?", instead of creating the flag, posting it and then after someone inquires what it means saying "Well, I'm not sure, but I can come up with a history for it". Personally it seems like it's just not something that was really thought about before it was made. I guess I'm just bothered by anything that's created and given a history as an afterthought rather than a part of the creative process. Doobieous 12:10, 13 March 2006 (PST)
What? You haven't heard the legend about Queen Cleopatra, who presented three holy cats to Julius Cæsar, who then subsequently took them with him on his expedition to Britain? ;))
Seriously now. While Barry and Marc are undoubtedly right here, I have to join David here. Part of the fun of IB has always been that we first invent something because we think it would be cool to have it, and only then start to think about a historical explanation. That explanation should be plausible, of course, but it's not like we always work our way up from early history to the present, like serious alt-historians are supposed to do.
And who knows? Perhaps Queen Beruthiel was in súch despair over the fact that her three cats had vanished, that she put them on the COA of Castreleon by decree! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 13:56, 13 March 2006 (PST)
I still think a wee bit of research should be done. Some regions have preference (or dislike) for certain colours & charges. Using something (especialy for an old city or province) which goes against trend just make it look artificial (fair enough, only to those who are interested in that sort of things of course).
In the case of Castreleon, nothing in the design (as far as I know) makes it "improper" (although the cat might be a bit more heraldic with the tail up over the body). It could however use some elements from its counterpart *here* (like replacing the crown with a "sun in splendor") just so, like I mention above, it does echos it somehow. --Marc Pasquin 16:09, 13 March 2006 (PST)
I *did* mention that we certainly *do* think of what would be cool first, but just like proposing articles here, it makes sense to put some forethought into what you're doing before presenting it. I'm all for creativity, but I'm even more for creativity which shows that some research was done. I'm not talking about making a flag which goes all the way back to the early Midiaeval period and is historically accurate. I'm talking about being thoughful when you create, not haphazard and willy nilly and *then* coming up with the history. After all, isn't almost everything we do based upon what we find cool with some historical research behind our reasons? Doobieous 16:47, 13 March 2006 (PST)
Okay, precisely what is it you're insisting upon here? That the creative process that goes into IB must follow a certain direction or the results should be forbidden? Please notice that at no time did I even vaguely suggest that all or most or even very many elements should be a matter of justification after the fact. What I did--explicitly--say (or write) is that sometimes it works. Sometimes. So--is this a demand that our imaginations must always follow a certain specific pattern? Or is it a complaint about me and my contributions? A forthright reply would be much appreciated. Zahir 18:17, 13 March 2006 (PST)
I've said it two times already, I simply would like to see when a proposal is given some historical background and *not* just/only/the only reason/because something looks "cool". I was only commenting on this ONE flag. If you actually read what I said the previous two times where I said I'd like to see an indication of some historical sense (WITHIN IB) given, rather than as you said yourself: "It was just a flag I designed because it looked cool. But if Andrew doesn't mind, I can come up with a story to justify it..." You did in fact say that you could justify this, which said to me that you didn't really have any sort of history behind it until you were asked. If I had a problem with you and your contributions, I'd be telling you that. Have I? No, I have not, and I'd appreciate it if implications weren't pulled out of what I say that aren't there at all.
Let's end this now before someone gets hurt. I'm actually pretty sorry I even gave my opinion here since it seems like it's raising more ire than it was worth. That's all I'm going to say on this subject anymore. I'll bite my tongue from here on out. Doobieous 18:56, 13 March 2006 (PST)
I have no problem with people agitating. I allow things to stay in a holding position rather than press for change. The cats are cute, but we have no historical reference for them, and no existing alt-historical reference for them (yet!) Now if they were lions or lions' heads we could claim folk etymology from leo(nis). (My quip about the cats of Queen Beruthiel is a throwaway line from Lord of the Rings which is not explained in his primary literature -- apparently she was the shrewish wife of a childless king of Gondor.) A quick search suggests that Caerleon does not have a coat of arms, at least one that I can find an image of quickly. I find on Wikipedia that the [Comprehensive School] uses an eagle over a fortress for its design. A search at Caerleon.net suggest that some groups there use a [design], perhaps to suggest the Roman Ampitheature that was Arthur's Ring. I can't see what design they have used on these [[1]]. Also that the Legio Augusta used a [[2]] as its standard, and had an [[3]] or Roman eagle, see the bottom of the page. Hopefully this might provide some history for a flag if we don't come up with a story for this one. - AndrewSmith 21:46, 13 March 2006 (PST).
One item with some historicity I mentioned above is this:
http://www.caerllion.net/archive/miscellany/goss.htm
Did King Belin exist "there" ?

For the record, I did indeed justify the three cats in a part of the article. Zahir 22:00, 13 March 2006 (PST)

Re: King Berlin I made a change, submitted for approval:
Proposed castreleon flag.jpg
Andrew? What do you think? Zahir 07:31, 14 March 2006 (PST)
I think it looks good. The connection between Castreleon and King Belin would exist there. The old romanesque folly in the centre of the city was named Porthbelin, King Belin's Gate, by the mediaeval historian Gioffri de Gwent. He named it in honour of the landmark in the ancient capital of the British people, London. The name in London is now obscured into corrupt Billingsgate according to the historian. (The date for the reclamation of the capital is still to be pencilled in.) It is a lucky confluence that the association of Belin can be made.
Apologies from me for not noting that you had made justified the three cats in the article. I like the association with the triads of Britain. I suggest we adopt the proposed flag and note that the origin of the three cats is unknown. As Tolkien once said, not every detail in a sub-creation needs to be spelled out to the reader. - AndrewSmith 19:10, 15 March 2006 (PST).
Just one small thing I would recommand to change are their tails to go over their back and point toward their heads. In heraldry, tails that point down are called "coward". --Marc Pasquin 03:16, 16 March 2006 (PST)
Been meaning to do this forever. I've re-done the flag, with the colors a bit darker, the bend in the other direction, and with the tails pointing up (meanwhile the cats faces now face forward). Let me know what you think. Zahir 23:59, 27 December 2006 (PST)

Shall we formally adopt this flag? Zahir 13:56, 22 May 2007 (PDT)

I think so. - AndrewSmith 20:55, 22 May 2007 (PDT).

Liverpool

What city in Kemr is Liverpool *there*? And how important is it? Juan Martin Velez Linares 01:01, 22 September 2015 (CDT)

This page has the info on Kemrese place names. It says, "Aberddui: second largest city in Kemr, on the northern river Dui." Comparing that to the map (an old scan of a hand drawing that unfortunately is too low-res to read clearly), it appears that Aberddui occupies the site of our town of Chester, not far from Liverpool but not the same place. The site of Liverpool itself seems to not be a major city. Manchester, by the way, seems to be a major city *there*. It's hard to read and does not appear to be on the place-name list, but I think it says "Mafyg" as its Brithenig name. Benkarnell 09:29, 28 September 2015 (PDT)
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