Talk:American Snorist Party
Costumes & Opening Shots
A nice, scary analogue to the KKK. The uniforms give me shivers. BoArthur 14:20, 23 November 2005 (PST)
- Maybe they could wear a kuklunish hood instead of the oprishnik balaclava.--Marc Pasquin 15:39, 23 November 2005 (PST)
- I would imagine that they're wearing a cloth-face mask with shaded goggles, thus making it all the more intimidating. BoArthur 16:11, 23 November 2005 (PST)
- The use of a shapeless hood (instead of a face-hugging mask) has an effect of de-anthropomorphisation (I always wanted to drop that one in a conversation). Some research seem to indicate that the least we can relate the shape of a creature to a human, the less confortable we feel with it. For example, a bird is not human shape but our brain will see the wings as arms, the beak as mouth, etc... On the other hand, a spider has too many arms and no discernable face (and more commonly a source of phobia).
- for an example of what I mean:
- Obviously thats all a bit theoretical, more a question of what they (through Zahir) want to convey.
- I was seeing the American Snorist Pary as more akin to the American Nazi Party in general "feel." The KKK with its hood and ridiculously overblown titles (Imperial Wizard, Grand Dragon, etc.) always seemed to me to have a feel of a fraternity or fraternal order gone horribly wrong. The Nazis by comparison (and the SNOR presumably) are a much more cohesive and disciplined group. None of these are exact comparisons, of course, because the SNOR are not National Socialists for one thing. And I was going with the idea that the Black Star Societies are more akin to the KKK (although not quite as bad), with the American Snorists a more effective version of the American Nazis. But different. If you know what I mean.
- Anyway, I see the American SNOR as prefering something blatantly militaristic, but with the hidden faces specifically intended to intimidate. What they lack in numbers they are trying--under Duke's leadership--to make up for with tactics.
- Surprised no one's picked up on the joke of what county Duke represented in Jacobia. Zahir 17:52, 23 November 2005 (PST)
- Maybe they could do like current US neo-nazi and mix influence: a bit of snorist paraphernalia and some NAL army uniform elements (or if they are mostly popular in Jacobia, english ones). I remember seeing a documentary recently about one group of Klansman who had decide to be taken more seriously by abandonning the white robe and donning instead US army camo gears with KKK badges. The stiched "Grand Dragon" NAme badge at the front sort of ruined it.--Marc Pasquin 18:08, 23 November 2005 (PST)
- I had wondered about Hazzard county...and with you commenting on it in that way, I got it. Does he have a brother Luke? And a cousin Daisy? As for the hood, part of me finds it intimidating more to have the face of a human crossed with something as military and foreign as the SNOR styled uniforms. I guess Communist Russia is still the bogeyman in the back of my mind. My vote is to keep it as you drew it originally. I think this should be a vote by all the more active members of the group, in Lla Dafern, because Marc does have a point, and I would like to see concensus of some type on this. BoArthur 18:14, 23 November 2005 (PST)
I like the logo a lot, the reference to the American Nazi Party is obvious to me, and I got the joke about Hazzard county. I like both uniforms (albeit with a slight preference for Marc's version). But there's one thing that I find hard to stomach: the idea of an American party advocating Slavic suppremacy. That's IMO where the comparison with the ANS fails. After all, the German nazis believed in Germanic/White suppremacy, and the typical American can be qualified as both. But the Americans are definitely not Slavs, nor is the Slavic(-descended?) minority in the NAL significantly bigger than *here*. In other words, a party advocating Slavic suppremacy in America makes no more sense to me than a party advocating Chinese or Japanese suppremacy. If you want to make this work, I would much rather imagine the ASP taking over the racist element of the SNOR (Slavs are white too, after all). Anti-communism and law-and-order could play a role, too. And there's the idea of a close cooperation between the NAL and the snorist bloc of nations. They would probably try to break away from the Commonwealth and prefer an orientation on snorist Russia instead. Just my Ŧ 0/0/0/2. --IJzeren Jan 01:15, 24 November 2005 (PST)
- Good Point. Maybe as you suggested, they concentrate on the anti-communist, law & order aspect of its platform and be similar to other pro-snorist but non-slavic regime (like estonia). Could be called American Renewal Party.
- Another option is that they are like the Bund was in the US. They would a membership of mostly first or 2nd generation slavic immigrants who act as SNORist apologists.
- No offense, but you seem to be suggesting ways to make the Snorists a more mainstream and even reasonable political movement. The whole point is they are not. They are a fringe group who happen to have good enough tactics to be well-known without (as yet, as far as anyone knows) committing any major crimes.
- There's also the psychological aspect to consider. These folk are first and foremost looking for an excuse. Rather than looking for a set of political beliefs that make sense, they're looking for a justification and even authorization for behavior that appeals to them but which is so far outside the mainstream. So they attach themselves to something greater--a powerful, impressive foreign empire--that teaches they are an Elite, a higher form of life that morally can/should treat other human beings like animals. That it doesn't make sense is irrelevant. Look at the higher-ups in Nazi Germany--how many of them looked anything like the Ayran Ideal they were talking about? The obese and drug-addicted Goerring? The club-foot Goebbels? The frail little chicken-farmer Himmler? The probably part-Jewish Hitler? That they are totally misinterpreting what the SNOR was all about is also irrelevent.
- I would question even whether many members of the American Snorists can actually claim Slavic blood. Many probably cannot, not without deluding themselves, but then--that is what they do. Take a good look at what the "core beliefs" are and you'll see this is not a group that could ever claim more than a few thousand members in a country the size of the NAL. Indeed, over time, the fact they really have zero prospects of getting their agenda done would probably move them to more extreme acts--like trying to take over a town or something, or allying themselves with other dangerous groups to ferment social unrest via violence (like The Order or too many Militia Groups *here*). Or maybe they'll turn inward, becoming more isolated and--frankly--sad.
- The point is--their policies and agenda don't make sense. They were doing extraordinarily well to get one member elected to a provincial legislature and if they ever manage to do it again that'll be a fluke. This is not a reasonable political movement but a tiny--and loud--fringe. Zahir 07:32, 24 November 2005 (PST)
- Okay, from that point of view I suppose you're right. All I was saying is that Slavic superiority seems like a bit of an odd programme point for an American party. It will probably mean that the member of the party are indeed people of (alledged?) Slavic descent, so the parallel with the Bund is valid IMO.
- The situation is a whole lot different in IB anyway: no nazis, no Holocaust, but no taboo either. I suppose even the American Nazi Party itself would be less of a fringe party *there*. I think if you really want to make it a provocative fringe party, I suppose the ASP must have advocated full incorporation in the snorist bloc of nations, perhaps even in snorist Russia itself! --IJzeren Jan 12:21, 24 November 2005 (PST)
- "Odd" is the least of it. They're a pack of loons! But dangerous loons. As for their long-range goals--well, what are the American Nazi's goals? A Fourth Reich in America? How likely is that? But odds are the ASP would have advocated leaving the Commonwealth and making common cause with Russia and its bloc. Nuts, I know. And with the fall of the SNOR they most likely want to further their own values whenever possible. The more I think on it the more likely it seems to me they're going to become a dangerous little group with an agenda of maybe forming their own little SNOR-ish province somewhere--an island or a chunk of the unincoporated territories or somewhere else. How likely are they to even get anywhere near success? Not very. Which only makes them more dangerous in the long run. What they'd most likely try to do (maybe) is to ferment some kind of chaos. To them, the mess that is Deseret is something DESIRABLE in the NAL! Again, their chances of actually achieving such would be low--much like the Order's avowed aim of carving an Ayran Homeland out of the Pacific Northwest *here*. Zahir 12:34, 24 November 2005 (PST)
- Small parties like that tend to split into even smaller parties, then merge with other small parties, and then split all over again. As I read today, the ANP was no exception to that. The ASP could have something similar. Perhaps, at some point, there was a split between the Duke faction and a more moderate group ("law and order", "anti-communism", you name it)? --IJzeren Jan 12:41, 24 November 2005 (PST)
Yeah. Well, here is the thing. The Unionists rose in the 1800s. The Black Star Societies are an extremist, sometimes violent offshoot of the Unionists. And the American SNOR is a more disciplined offshoot of the Black Star Societies. This is not a criticism, because groups like this do break up and factionalize all over the place. I was envisioning the ASP as pretty much under the heel of Dmitri Duke, who is a fuhrer in all but name. Much as the Ayran Nation has been dominated by its leader for decades. I was thinking it more likely that the factioning would follow at least one of two lines:
- The Extremists Break Off The ones who consider Duke too wishy-washy and not fierce enough. The new group are much more secretive and violent, with an agenda of violent revolution.
- The Party Goes Extreme Duke decides to further his own agenda more fiercely, perhaps allying himself with organized crime and/or other extremist groups and a moderate faction of the ASP breaks away, wanting nothing to do with this looney who'll get them all in jail if not killed in a shoot-out with the CBI.
Which do you think makes more sense? And what about anyone else's opinoins? Zahir 12:55, 24 November 2005 (PST)
- I still have difficulty with them being non-slavic-slavic-supremacist. You mentioned some of the nazi leaders being less then stellar exemple of aryanism (which is quite true) but they were still (at least according to them) ethnicaly germanic which to them equated with aryans. As I mentioned before, it would make more sense to have them being nominaly slavic *or* concentrate on other aspect on the snorist platform (and in which case, use another name).
- As for what happened, both make as much sense to me and as Jan point out, they could have a long history of splinter off-shot. You could even have a small group that decided to go legit and tone down some of the rethoric (in public anyway).--Marc Pasquin 14:42, 25 November 2005 (PST)
- The whole point is that the members claim to be Slavic. One way or another. They have some wiggle room in the idea that Slavs are a "purer" strain of humanity. Just as Himmler had the SS go around looking for Poles and others who matched certain physical profiles, believing that strains of Ayran blood were cropping up. The SS had a master plan (wacked as this sounds) of cross-breeding all those who showed signs for enough generations that eventually their descendants would be superhuman, with incredible psychic powers. Members of the American Snorist Party believe this of themselves--that they have slavic blood in them that runs to some extent "pure" and that makes them better than others. They don't deny that other peoples might have traces of such purity--quite the opposite! Certainly any country that in the past was invaded by or allied with an ethnically Slavic state would be a candidate for containing greater than average amounts of "Slavic Blood."
- This is all really only a tiny varient of genuine Nazi belief *here*, and can still be justified given the ASP's small numbers. Recall they claim to have only ten thousand members--and are probably exagerating. That is less than ten-thousand nutcases in a country the size of the NAL able to convince themselves they have slavic ancestry that has somehow bred pure. Which basically means anyone with ancestors from almost anywhere in Eastern Europe or near Eastern Europe.
- The United States has a population near 300 million. The NAL probably has a little less than half that. Round it off to a mere 100 million people. Wow. Ten thousand or less out of 100 million? That is less than a tenth of a percent of the general population. Zahir 17:43, 25 November 2005 (PST)
What does it represent ? --Marc Pasquin 15:39, 23 November 2005 (PST)
- It is an attempt to recreate the stylized SNOR emblem but with an American (i.e. NAL) flavor. Hence white on blue, with a five-pointed star. It is intended to be instantly recognizable. Zahir 17:52, 23 November 2005 (PST)
- Fair enough, for some reason I thought it was a "M" over a "A". It seem to be lacking either heads or wings however (either would lead to some easy jokes from its deterents). --Marc Pasquin 03:28, 24 November 2005 (PST)
- The star is the head. And yes, there are wings. When I first uploaded this some image the first time someone dubbed it a "beheaded dove" which would also be kinda appropriate. Zahir 07:32, 24 November 2005 (PST)
Last chance at feedback before I de-proposalize this. Of course I know that changes can still be made, but once the "proposal" tag is lifted what is written is QSS and thus far more tricky to alter. Soooooo...any comments?
I make these ASNORP related proposals.
|This article is a proposal
- A common protest song of the American SNORist party is I Know That My Redeemer Lives - Glory, Hallelujah!, with emphasis on the Puritan words and tune (see http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/Hymns/iktmrlgh.htm). They claim that this is a Slav song, and the Lutheran-puritans nicked it from them. They've even produced a spurious russian translation, which simply doesn't work.
- Recently, the APD were accused of having some link with the American SNORists. This is hotly denied by the APD. However, the American SNORists do have some vague similarities, although the APD are quick to point out that they do not tolerate the quasi-Darwinist theories of the American SNORists, and are not a pan-Slavic association.
- At one point in time, the American SNORists were known for their controversial pro-life, anti-sexual freedom policies relating to their strong Orthodox beliefs. They have been known to throw acid in the faces of women waiting for abortions and also lynched non-Slavs - especially scandinavians (and blacks? the American SNORists don't have to be too KKK.)- in unnoficial lynchings at one point in time.
How goes QSS for this? --Quentin 12:05, 4 April 2006 (PDT)
- The article in question gives the impression that the ASP (American Snorist Party)has done little or nothing by way of actual violence. Those who wanted to indulge in same have split off into the NWO (New World Order). It would be slightly inaccurate to view the ASP as being simply Ring Wing a la the APD. They are more akin to a cult, and would in fact only oppose Slavic couples (as they define that term) having abortions. They would be thrilled at anyone else having them. Although I've only done a tiny bit of work in this direction, the analogy to the KKK would most likely be the Black Star Societies and it is they who would have a history of physical assaults and quite possibly lynchings. Keep in mind the Black Star Societies (who date from the Crisis of 1875) are much older than the American Snorists.
- Having said that, I think it more likely Black Star Societies would have connections to the APD. The analogy *here* would be that Moral Majority might walk along the same road with the KKK but would avoid even spitting distance with the Aryan Nations. Zahir 12:15, 4 April 2006 (PDT)