File talk:Flag Tuscany.PNG

please see the comment under Lla_Dafern#About_making_and_uploading_flags --Marc Pasquin 12:15, 20 May 2006 (PDT)

My apologies. I have uploaded a modified flag to represent the partially Xliponian origin of the current Ducal House. Zahir 12:41, 20 May 2006 (PDT)

It still has elements from the original. Why not simply redraw the flag *based* on the other image ? its the image file itself that is copyrighted, not the design.--Marc Pasquin 12:50, 20 May 2006 (PDT)

I did not understand properly. What I've done is upload an entirely new design suggested by the old Grand Duchy flag, by the current Tuscan Flag and by the Xliponian Flag. Comments very welcome. (Hey, designing a whole new flag was more fun anyway). Zahir 12:59, 20 May 2006 (PDT)

Is it based on something ? --Marc Pasquin 20:16, 22 May 2006 (PDT)

Yes, what is this flag's history? Doobieous 20:58, 22 May 2006 (PDT)

Essentially I took the red from the Italian and Xliponian flags as well as the flag of the Grand Duchy *here* (which is also where I got horizontal orientation, and the ducal coronet). The griffins are from Xliponia. The bull was perhaps a mistake. My memory of Tuscany's arms/flag was faulty when I double-checked. Turns out theirs has a winged horse. But it could just as easily have been a bull. In essence the idea is that the ducal arms are representative of the legal fiction of the Grand Duke's position. Zahir 21:18, 22 May 2006 (PDT)

Okay, I did a redesign, having found my error about the bull. This time I took the Italian colors and put a modified ducal arms in the center but sans ducal coronet (because the government is only a duchy technically). The arms are a combination of the Medici, the Tuscan, the Habsburg-Lorraine and the Xliponian (the griffin). Zahir 06:58, 23 May 2006 (PDT)

Normaly you wouldn't simply add one element of a given arm over another one (especialy as in this case you've just united xliponia with Lorraine). You would divide the shield to accept all four (like the spanish arms) if all represent suzerainty over which the sovereign (at least in the past) have some claims to.

If you simply want to show that a given dinasty is in power (i.e. a minor branch of the xliponian nobility) add instead a small shield in the middle with the arms (in the same shape as the other shield so here, oval). In this case, use the actual arms of Xliponia (same colour and stance) but with a small distinctive mark. The bourbon branch that reigned in spain and two-sicilles for example used the arm of france with a red border (as member of the house of Anjou) while the one in Naple added a red label. The Orleans (who briefly reigned in France) used a white label on France arms.

Of course, Kyrmse might have some toughts on the matter of differentiation in Xliponia. *Here* England only employ label with varying number of branch depending on rank defaced with some sort of objects (to the taste of the bearer). Scotland on the other hand is the kingdom with the most elaborate and strict method although it only include border types.

Another, simpler way would be to use the strictly historicaly specific Toscane part (5 red circles on a gold field) with or without the inescutcheon of pretence (the small shield described before). --Marc Pasquin 18:15, 23 May 2006 (PDT)

New version, taking your suggestions into account. The smaller shield shows a set of arms suggested by the Xliponian royal arms, but clearly different. Comments? Zahir 19:08, 23 May 2006 (PDT)

Much improved but the inescutcheon is *too* different in my opinion. As it is (different colours and pose) the arm could be from a completely unrelated family. Think for example of all the arms that contain a lion or an eagle but which have nothing whatsoever in common (in therm of familial relation).

Much better to go for the Xliponian arms with a *small* change. There would still be room for innovation: a geometric object added (bordure, label, losange, bend, etc...), a small change in the field (checkered, strewn with rectangles, divided in two, etc...) or an addition (quartered with some other arms, the left half joined to the right half of another arms, etc...). Just as long as you could easily see that the family is related to the Xliponian dinasty.

If you want a bit of inspiration, look here:

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/frdiffer.htm (french differentiation)

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armorial_des_Cap%C3%A9tiens (images)

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/cadency.htm (english/british differentiation)

http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/images/differencing.jpg (scottish differentiation)-::: -Marc Pasquin 20:04, 23 May 2006 (PDT)

I think I'd like to get Ronald's opinion on this. For one thing, I'd like his input on the exact relations between the House of Habsburg-Bovlai and the ruling house of Xliponia. Zahir 20:10, 23 May 2006 (PDT)

Okay, I used Xliponia's Griffin, but reversed the colors and put a black stripe down the middle of the background. Comments? Zahir 18:41, 24 May 2006 (PDT)

The flag doesn't seem quite wide enough. Otherwise, I do like it. BoArthur 15:23, 5 June 2006 (PDT)

While the 4/5 ratio is not as common as the 1/2 or the 2/3, there are still a few like that (like the flag of nearby monaco). Regarding the new middle shield, looks Good. The 2 changes from the original (reversal of colour and addition of a black band) could represent first the establishement of the dynasty in Tuscany and the second would date from a time when the direct line finished and a younger brother took the throne. --Marc Pasquin 17:52, 5 June 2006 (PDT)

That's one way. Of course, it might also be that each generation of the Xliponian royals who aren't Kings reverse the colors, then add some distinguishing detail: Two black stripes, or three; stars surrounding the griffin; a diamond pattern of red and black, or red and green, etc. These aren't terribly serious suggestions, just me thinking aloud (sorta). Zahir 22:07, 5 June 2006 (PDT)

The thing to remember is the arms does not represent an individual but a dynasty. When one wants to represent a specific monarch (on a royal flag or something like that), you normaly put that monarch's cypher (those calligraphic letters thingies).--Marc Pasquin 17:03, 6 June 2006 (PDT)