File talk:Europe1941.jpg

Okay, here is my latest version, using a template very kindly donated by BoArthur. To my mind the biggest question mark is just how much of Northern France did the HRE manage to grab? But on the other hand, might not such lines be by their very nature in flux? IMO Xliponia could have avoided invasion by insisting on neutrality--treating everyone as foreign nationals with whom they were not at war. Methinks both sides could see an advantage to having such a neutral port there, especially since it doesn't seem to be "in the way" of anything. On the other hand, it also seems to me that Xliponia would be an absolute hotbed of espionage. Zahir 07:24, 21 October 2005 (PDT)

I don't realy find it creadible that Xliponia would have avoided invasion. They are *completely* surrounded without even someone to back them.

Incidently, what's that little bit of yellow on the italic peninsula.--Marc Pasquin 11:53, 21 October 2005 (PDT)

That is a spot of white. I didn't know what it represented so left it blank for now. Zahir 13:29, 21 October 2005 (PDT)

*here*, thats San Marino. I was wondering why the russian were there but now that you mention it, I realise its just an optical illusion my screen played on me.

*Here* it was technicaly neutral during WW2 but tried to stay out of the italians' way. They did get invaded near the end of the war after the allied landed in southern italy.--Marc Pasquin 13:42, 21 October 2005 (PDT)

So Italy--or a chunk of it--fell to the HRE? Zahir 13:52, 21 October 2005 (PDT)

Sorry if I wasn't clear, the second paragraph was only describing what happened *here*. As far as I know, none of the italian states were on the side of germany so I doubt they would have been *there* in the first place.--Marc Pasquin 14:04, 21 October 2005 (PDT)

On Xliponian invasion vs. independence, please refer to Lla Dafern and the Discussion page on the Xliponia article. In the meanwhile, I'm thinking! I'm thínking! (as the man said to the robber who demanded "Your money or your life")... Kyrmse 04:53, 24 October 2005 (PDT)

Nit Picks

Algeria (just west of Tunisia) should be green, it was/is french. Elba and the islands near it, Green, the islands above sicily green, and an island by Illyrica/Tyrol/Slovenia black. The island due west of Xliponia is part of Xliponia, and thus neutral. Yes, that is San-Marino, so it should be red if it was neutral *there*. Nice map.

Was Eire independent in 1941? Keith? BoArthur 15:48, 21 October 2005 (PDT)

A quick look at Keith's website shows that Eire was a Free State at this time, nominally still under Kemrese dominion until the 1950s. They could have elected not to support the FK's war against the Central Powers. "Neither King nor Kaiser". - AndrewSmith 01:59, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

What Andrew said. :-) Ireland was neutral on the side of the allies. While Irish people fought in various armies on the side of the allies and supplied quite a bit of intelligence to the allies too, they were, strictly speaking, neutral. Oh, and both *here* and *there*, the name of Ireland in English is Ireland and not Éire. I know, it sounds picky and anal, but it's something that really rubs Irish people up the wrong way; the usage of Éire in English is stated as incorrect in the constitution, and it's became associated with what would be politely termed a dismissive air in the British press. --Kgaughan 12:16, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

PLEASE DELETE THIS IMAGE Zahir 07:23, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

Why delete it, David? In my opinion, this version of the map is excellent, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it at all! Of course, I may have missed something... I've been too busy the last few days. I'll catch up tonight. --IJzeren Jan 09:47, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

Actually, I'm now informed there is something very wrong with it indeed. It shows the FK as green, when by that time it should be black, having signed a "humiliating" separate peace with the Holy Roman Empire immediately after Dunkirk. This was not information I had available to me in any way (at least, nowhere did I find it in looking all over the place--the Yahoo Group, the websites, here at Wiki, etc.) so I cannot be held accountable for that error. Zahir 14:15, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

Well, given the discussion in Lla Dafern I think we can safely keep it green, even though there wasn't any actual fighting for a while... --IJzeren Jan 22:50, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

Yes, the island due west from Xliponia ís XL territory - the island called Corfu or Kérkyra *here*, and the Province of Ançec *there*, so red, please! Kyrmse 04:46, 24 October 2005 (PDT)

I've made some changes but am waiting to hear about the amount and location of black in France before uploading it. Zahir 07:09, 24 October 2005 (PDT)

The volume of black in France looks good to me...I'm not sure on all the details, but if the HRE only invaded what equates to Francie, then Gaulhe would be Free France, and that's about the right size. Marc? BoArthur

Based on what has been written before, it would have to be large enough to *at least* come close to paris and cover enough of the coast to allow for that dunkirk debacle. Beside that, I have no idea. I guess we can wait until more has been described about the the rest of the war to figure out how much is needed.

Basicaly though Dan, your right that as long as most (if not all) of gaulhe stays free, it should be okay.--Marc Pasquin 09:54, 28 October 2005 (PDT)

Thanks for colouring Ançec red! Kyrmse 11:48, 26 October 2005 (PDT)

Danubian Confederation

Ferke: Question: Why is the territory of the Danubian Confederation black?

According to the article on the Second Great War:

The first signs of a split in the Allianz became visible in 1941, when the Danubian Confederation withdrew from it after some generals had removed the prime minister and abrogated the treaty. This annoyed the Allianz, and soon Germany, Hungary and Greece invaded with Russian support. Now, I don't know another way to read this save to assume that the Danubian Confederation was part of Prussian sphere of influence, tried to leave, then was forced back into the fold. Zahir 12:12, 27 November 2005 (PST)

Hey Ferko, good to have you back! Actually, we really need your help in this. In the discussion of another image, I wrote the following:

<quote>
It's still unclear what happened with the Danubian Confederation. There is a clear inconsistency between what is written on the Dalmatia page and what is written on the Second Great War page.

The former writes: "The Danubian Confederation fought against the Grossartige Allianz during the Second Great War, until the civil war broke out.", and that the civil war lasted from 1944 till 1947.

On the other hand, the Second Great War page writes: "The first signs of a split in the Allianz became visible in 1941, when the Danubian Confederation withdrew from it [...]. This annoyed the Allianz, and soon Germany, Hungary and Greece invaded with Russian support. The Danubian Confederation did not stand a chance; it formally ceased to exist, and in its place several smaller puppet states were established, [...]. The Independent State of Croatia [...] clashed heavily with the new snorist regimes of the Kingdoms of Bulgaria and Serbia, which had factually become Russian satellites."

First of all, we don't know for sure if Serbia and Bulgaria were indeed overrun by Germany. We don't know what happened to Dalmatia. The text of Dalmatia (originally written by Ferko and much older than my text about GW2) doesn't take into account any of our later discoveries regarding the War, and the quotes from Second Great War were mostly Ferko's own ideas. But if the entire DC was under German occupation in 1944, it strikes me as unlikely that there really was a Civil War in that year. But if it didn't start in 1944, then when did it start? And if there wasn't any Civil War at all, how did the CSDS come into existence? And would the CSDS really have emerged in 1947, in the middle of GW2? I think those years date back to the times when we still assumed a WW2 or a GW2 that lasted from 1939 till 1945!
</quote>

These are problems we can't solve withour your intervention. What would be your take on this? --IJzeren Jan 23:36, 27 November 2005 (PST)

My apologies. I confess to having missed discussion of said contradiction. I await a specific ruling. Thankee. Zahir 23:48, 27 November 2005 (PST)

Ferko: I'm not *really* back... just thought I'd look in. Anyways, GW2. The DC *was* overrun, and the civil war *did* start in 1944, just like *here*. Actually, this part is very similar to the events in Yugoslavia *here*. Initially various partizan groups started up to fight against the Germans, but by 1944 they started openly fighting against each other just as much as against the Germans; despite this, occasionally they did make cooperative efforts against the Germans to liberate territory (only to then fight over the territory amongst themselves). The CSDS was proclaimed in 1947 as encompassing the entirety of the former Danubian Confederation (but de facto consisting only of an area encompassing Uzice, Kampa de Miarle and Kragujevac), though in practical terms the CSDS as it was after the war didn't emerge until about 1949. If someone could make changes to the various related pages (CSDS, etc), I'd much appreciate it, as I don't really have the time to work on this, what with work and my other present projects.

So, in other words, the civil was in a reality a war between the various puppet states that had been established on its territory. Or no, the puppet states had probably ceased to exist by then, and the entire DC territory was now occupied by German forces. So the war took place no matter who is nominally in charge in those territories. Is that right? Even Bulgaria and Serbia were occupied by the Germans and the Hungarians? And what was the status of Dalmatia shortly after the collapse of the DC, but before 1944? Was it a German satellite state too?

I'll make the updates you ask for later. --IJzeren Jan 05:49, 29 November 2005 (PST)

No. The Germans (rightly) figured that a puppet-Dalmatia would be too unrealistic even as those things go given anti-German (Austrian) sentiments in Dalmatia, so simply held it as occupied territory, though parts were given to puppet-Serbia and puppet-Croatia.

Okay, all clear then. No, wait! Was there a puppet-Bulgaria too? --IJzeren Jan 05:57, 29 November 2005 (PST)

I think so; Greece was Allianz, yes? If so, Bulgaria was held and governed by the greeks, kinda like the General Gouvernement in Poland *here*...

Okay. --IJzeren Jan 05:53, 30 November 2005 (PST)

German Sphere

How about making the borders in the German Sphere more visable (e.g. colouring them grey/white)? --Sikulu 23 December 2005, 11:08 (GMT)

Wow! Been a long time since anyone commented on this! But yes, making the borders more visible would be quite nice. [Use:Seth|Seth]] 05:53, 7 August 2007

Done. Zahir 12:04, 7 August 2007 (PDT)

I think me and Sikulu were refering to individual countries inside of the German Sphere... Seth 07:10, 8 August 2007

My only problem...

I'd like to see the internal boundaries in the German Sphere and Aragon is lacking in territory (It's appears to be missing Aragon from IRL...) Seth 21:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Aragon's actually missing Zaragosa, and should actually make contact with Navarra's eastern border (the footy part of France). And I agree about having the internal borders white for the German Sphere. BoArthur 22:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)